These albums were a pleasant surprise to what I was expecting. After finding all things Drag Race in September 2022, and shortly after finding Trixie’s podcasts, Trixie Motel, and the documentary about her, I was excited to hear her music. Trixie and Katya, her podcast cohost, often joke about how terrible Trixie sings—I don’t think that is the case. Trixie is 34, around the same age as most of the Record Club participants and listeners. These albums bring me back to early emo, ska, and even a little nod to country of the 1990s and early 2000s. The tracks made me want to get in the car, roll down the windows, and drive around the neighborhood with friends like I did in high school and college. Are these the deepest lyrics? No ma'am. Are they fun? For sure and easy to clap or dance along to, which puts them pretty high up in my book.
Here is some Record Club news: our RC alumni did pretty well at last week's Grammys! Midnight, an RC album from late 2022, won the Album of the Year trophy, making it the first Record Club album to win the award since 1996's Jagged Little Pill (and only the third total, including Rumours' win in 1978). Miley Cyrus won Record of the Year among other awards. boygenius won a few awards for the record (beating Arctic Monkeys and Gorillaz for Best Alternative Music Album). So did Paramore, and they became the first female-fronted rock band to win Best Rock Album. Killer Mike won three Grammys and then got arrested over some bullshit. Future won a Grammy by being featured on a Killer Mike song that won. Highwoman Brandi Carlile won with a feature on a Brandy Clark track. Shoutout to all the RC alumni who lost their respective categories, including Noah Kahan for Best New Artist. Next year, little buddy!
KEELAN'S COMMENTS: A couple months ago, when I was watching the Lizard Person Demi Lovato Christmas Special, I texted Keelan, since she was the one who put Demi Lovato on our Record Club radar originally. We were chatting about the guest stars, and Keelan mentioned Trixie Mattel, and how she makes music. I suggested that maybe Keelan pick one of her albums for Record Club, and she obliged. When I asked if she had any "reason for choosing" or any other comments, Keelan texted: "Nah." Good to have a long-time RC member back in the fold.
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ALBUM DETAILS
GENRE: Singer-songwriter, power pop, sunshine pop, garage rock revival, psychedelic pop, indie surf, folk pop
PRONOUNS: I think that she/her/hers is the preferable pronoun set for this music criticism endeavor, since Trixie Mattel is a female character, and she is the artist listed for this album. If you were talking about the person who plays the drag queen character Trixie, the cisgender man known as Brian Michael Firkus, then you'd use he/him/his. But we're not talking about Firkus' album, we're talking about Trixie Mattel's album. It would be like if you were talking about "Do the Bartman," as sung by Bart Simpson. Even though the voice actor behind Bart is female, the character is male, and the character is the artist. This isn't one of those preachy moments, but it ishouse style of this blog to consider a fictional character to be the artist of the music they are performing, so... just use she/her/hers.
ABOUT: Trixie Mattel was born August 23, 1989, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. "Trixie Mattel" is the stage name of Brian Michael Firkus. She is a drag queen, first appearing in Season 7 of RuPaul's Drag Race, and eventually winning Season 3 of Drag Race All-Stars. She is one of the most prolific drag queens in the country, having starred in multiple TV series, appeared in numerous TV specials, writing a book and becoming a New York Times bestseller, and releasing a host of music albums. She is the CEO of Trixie Cosmetics, the co-owner of Wisconsin's oldest LGBTQ+ bar, This Is It!, and has a huge collection of Barbie dolls.
DISCOGRAPHY:The Blonde & Pink Albums is Trixie's fourth and most recent studio LP. The first was Two Birds in 2017, followed by One Stone ten months later. Barbara was released in 2020, one month before the pandemic. Numerous EPs available as well, including a Christmas EP from 2017.
PREVIOUSLY ON RECORD CLUB: The most obvious connection today—perhaps the most obvious connection in the history of Record Club—is between Trixie and RuPaul. Both drag queens, Trixie starred on Ru's show for two seasons, has made plenty of appearances since, and even performed a dance to an American song on All-Stars.
Another connection was already mentioned—Trixie made an appearance in the Demi Lovato Christmas thing. Trixie Mattel is not, as far as I know, a lizard person.
Trixie Mattel has named a bunch of artists that have influenced her over the years. Here are the two that are Record Club alumni: Dolly Parton and Weezer. Intriguing mix!
Finally, I thought it would be cool to see which Record Club alumni have shown up on the Drag Race seasons when Trixie Mattel was on. A Demi Lovato song showed up on the episode before the one when Trixie was eliminated. In All-Stars, we heard a Diana Ross song, and also, Trixie won the whole damn thing while lip-syncing to a Miley Cyrus song.
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RC CLASSIC ALBUM OF THE WEEK
Starting last week, and for every week moving forward, I'll be giving a quick re-listen to the RC album we covered five years ago exactly. I'll also write a quick reevaluation and publish it Friday morning, before the regular reviews. Reevaluation, reflection, something like that. We'll see how it goes. If anyone wants to join me, let me know! Though I understand that regular RC duties are more than enough already.
King Tuff was an interesting listen this week. There were times I was reminded of something you'd hear at the swell of a rebellious moment on The Wonder Years. Like King Tuff's "Sun Medallion" would slowly rise and take over after Kevin Arnold stood up to his bully brother for the first time in a long time, cementing his entrance into adulthood. Otherwise, the lyrics felt very repetitive, very repetitive to me. It became annoyingly repetitive as I probably sound here now. By the end of listening I knew most of the words and not in a fun way. So overall, not my jam but I'm sure the concert will be fun!
How I Got Over definitely surprised me this week. My main knowledge of the Roots has primarily come from Jimmy Fallon's Tonight Show. Yes yes, I can hear everyone gasping in horror and disgust. Will I be kicked out of the Record Club for it? Hopefully! Until then, here's what I thought after listening...
Whoa Baby! The Roots cover some heavy subject matter on this album. I'm not sure if this is typical for them, but it was an interesting surprise for me. I think you really need to be in a good headspace when listening so you are able to take everything in. It makes you think about navigating all the trying but wonderful aspects of life. It has moments where your heart will break and moments where you are filled with hope. While the Roots are not in my go-to genre, I'm glad I listened and learned.
I enjoyed this album—great to listen to at work, while cleaning, really just a good background sound to break up the quiet. It's also only nine songs, so it went quick!
These Are Good People reminded me of something Kat Stratford would listen to while contemplating teenage life, doing homework, and how to break down the patriarchy while also maybe falling in love (this is a reference to the critically acclaimed movie, and one of my favorites, 10 Things I Hate About You). It has the quiet but strong tension of teenage rebellion, confusion, and complex emotions. Even though my teenage rebellion years have passed, this creates an awakening to the potential for mid-thirties rebellion years and all the possibilities that come with that.
Joe has watched "Grannies Gone Wild" 101 times so far this summer. Watch the episode HERE. You can also read every single Grannies Gone Wild entry in the archives HERE.
Oh my goodness. It's like 1 AM right now on Friday night / Saturday morning. I'm drunk—honestly, I'd call it slightly drunk, since Busch Light is not the hammer that I feared it would be.
Why have I been drinking? Well, to celebrate the near-end of summer, our SUMMER OF REBA.
Here's the bit: nine friends, sitting around a table, doing a table read of "Grannies Gone Wild."
The purpose: I've seen this episode over 100 times. I'm tired of the same line readings. I need some fresh perspectives. Here they are.
I've embedded the entire table read below (audio only). Notes below it, including the cast list. Use this script if you're trying to follow along.
Incredible. You don't understand how great this is. You can't possibly understand it. For me, hearing my old and new friends interpret "Grannies Gone Wild" in their own way was so new and exciting that I'm almost in tears right now, honestly.
The funny thing is that the "actual" line readings are so ingrained in my mind that literally any other line reading for these same lines are going to be hilarious. There is no "good" and "bad" here. Listen to how Kev deadpans these Van lines; just the simple act of hearing these dumb little lines in literally any other way than I have 100 times before is such an immense joy that I can't even describe it.
I mean, just listen to the audio file. Listen to all the "studio audience" laughter after some of the lines. Speaking personally, maybe some or most of these line readings wouldn't be as funny as I thought they were, were it not for the fact that I am intimately familiar with "Grannies Gone Wild," and so just hearing something new is so goddamn amazing that I can't help but laugh.
I've overshot the natural point that I should share the cast list for today's table reading. Here it is. (A few of the participants are PoYB contributors; check the tags at the bottom if you want to explore other blog posts that these friends are involved in.)
Keelan — REBA HART
Kev — VAN MONTGOMERY
Marielle — CHEYENNE HART-MONTGOMERY
Frank — BROCK HART
Kelsey — BARBARA JEAN HART
Ed — JUDGE STEPHEN TOBOLOWSKY; ELDER CARE WORKER
Pam — PATRICE WYDMORE; GUITAR; VOCAL LEADER Sunny — Stage Director #2; JAKE HART; "JAKE" Joe — Stage Director #1
Honestly, I hope you enjoy listening to the table read as much as I did. Even if the only eight people who listen to it besides me are the eight people who participated in this dumbass bullshit project, I'll still be happy. What a goddamn delight, to hear other people interpret this stagnant text. I can't say it enough. Thanks to all who played a character.
Alright, I'm out. It's almost 2 AM now. Woof. Let's end the summer strong.
Joe has watched "Grannies Gone Wild" 25 times so far this summer. Watch the episode HERE.
Last week, we had our good pal and PoYB contributor Keelan F**** over for dinner. She is also a noted Reba superfan, and was aware that I had a weird "Grannies Gone Wild" plan brewing this summer. In fact, back when I sent that email to the blog roll, trying to stoke some interest in the project, she was one of three people who originally emailed me back to let me know she might be interested. But this was before she realized that I wasn't watching all the episodes of Reba, I was watching one episode of Reba over and over. I can understand the reluctance.
Anyway, I had to be extremely delicate in our discussion about Reba over dinner during my third week of "Grannies Gone Wild." While the temptation is there to get as much information from a superfan as I possibly could—does Cheyenne have a baby? why is she in AA? where the fuck is Scarlett?—I think this Summer of Reba works better if I only speculate about these things. It's more fun to make wild extrapolations based on one single episode.
So I requested no spoilers, and Keelan graciously complied. I did have three general, carefully chosen questions, though, and I will share those questions and her answers here.
1) Are Van and Brock supposed to have a contentious relationship? Nothing significant, just to the normal extent that in-laws might have. So the whole bit about Van basically wishing death on his father-in-law, and gloating over his death when it actually happens, can be chalked up to a jokes-first-character-development-second style of scriptwriting.
2) Are Reba and Brock comfortable in their divorced relationship, or do they contemplate their relationship and feelings for each other at any point? The latter, though I requested that no specifics are given. I guess that these two characters have everything pretty much worked out by Season 5, since none of that comes out in "Grannies Gone Wild" (e.g. Brock takes Reba's BJ/circus joke in total stride).
3) Are we supposed to like Van? Keelan says that she likes Van because he develops well as a character over the seasons. Man, what a joy that would be, to have the tools necessary to see Van as anything other than a dumb selfish shitbag.
Keelan also had some information about JoAnna Garcia Swisher, but let's talk about that tomorrow.
Shadow demons come out of the ground and drag me to hell as I attempt to go through a list of 200 movies that I've never seen before.
Ghost
1990
Jerry Zucker
Let's take it easy today and find out what our good friend and PoYB contributor Keelan F**** has to say about today's film, Ghost.
Joe: I guess I didn't know what to expect. That's by design—a lot of these movies ended up on my list for very superficial reasons, and I'm not necessarily watching them because I heard they were "good" or I was interested in what they were "about." I knew that there was a sexy pottery scene in Ghost, because I was familiar with a parody of that scene. That's all I knew. I did NOT know that this scene happened in the first five minutes, and that the rest of the movie involved the ghost of Patrick Swayze trying to contact his girlfriend.
It was really campy! In a good way! I really enjoyed the wacky directions it went in. I guess I was more surprised about the critical acclaim it has. This movie was nominated for Best Picture! Whoopi won the Oscar for her role! On first watch, knowing nothing about this, it almost came off as a campy niche cult movie, and it is certainly not that.
Okay, so, as Puke on Your Birthday's premiere Romantic Comedy Expert, I want to start by asking some general opinion questions about this film. Are you a fan of it in general? Do you think it warrants the acclaim it apparently gets? And do you feel it fits comfortably in the "romantic comedy" role? Or at least "romantic dramedy"? Am I wrong in thinking that this film came off as more funny than sad, especially thirty years after it came out?
Keelan: Yes! I'm so glad this was on your list of movies if, for nothing else, to understand the massive amount of pop culture references to the pottery scene. Ok, so Ghost is definitely one of those early '90s movies with consistent nods to '80s culture and life. I love the soundtrack, the costumes, how colorful everything was, etc. "Unchained Melody"? Phenomenal! There are also so many references even in today's pop culture to the haircut Demi Moore had in this movie. The first time I saw this movie, probably around five or six years old, I fell in love with Patrick Swayze, but also found the movie terrifying. It was a confusing moment in my life.
There are many moments to unpack but I feel like the first thing is that I don't believe it is a true romantic comedy. I feel like it came out while the world was still figuring out what the genre was. It has romance, it has comedic moments, but it isn't a romantic comedy. Overall though, I feel like it's more drama and comedy. A dramedy as you have previously mentioned. If you look it up, it is described as a "romantic fantasy thriller," but who has time to say all those words?!
In regards to Whoopi, the late '80s and '90s were her time to SHINE. She was starring, hosting, nominated, and winning every award (that's right, every. single. award.). Apparently Oprah turned the role down which I think was a good choice. Whoopi does a good job of going back and forth between having super silly and then very serious moments, which I don't know if Oprah could've done that as easily as Whoopi does. I feel like the movie got so much acclaim because of the cast. Patrick Swayze was already riding highs from Dirty Dancing, and Demi Moore was in the limelight as a member of the Brat Pack for a while at that point as well. Bruce Willis, Demi's husband at the time and a superstar himself, turned down the role of Sam. I think Patrick Swayze was the right pick here. I feel like if husband and wife play husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfriend roles, everything becomes about them and the story is lost. Like when Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt did Mr. and Mrs. Smith—does anyone care about what the movie is about? NO! We just know that's when Brad cheated on Jen and caused the break heard 'round the world.
I've gone off on the BrAngelina tangent so I'll stop here for now lol.
Joe: First, in between seeing your message and responding to you, I saw this on Reddit.
I enjoyed picturing five-year-old Keelan watching Ghost. I can imagine it being the type of movie that is scary as fuck when you're young, and then those same "scary" parts are pretty funny when you get older.
I think maybe that's why I'd err toward this being a romantic comedy, because it IS funny, but maybe some of the funny stuff wasn't intentionally funny, especially for 1990 audiences. Any of the intentional humor was outside of the romance—i.e. Whoopi, who you correctly described as on fire during this. Maybe I didn't even realize the true extent of her star power until watching this movie? Having grown up when she was past her prime and only knowing her as a talk show shit-stirrer and a hyena.
Also just saw Demi Moore in A Few Good Men. I feel like maybe she did better in this movie, probably because she had way more to do? I'll say that her haircut is cute, but her voice has always been the most adorable thing about her.
The Bruce Willis tidbit is interesting! The most intriguing thing about it is thinking about the ripple effect that would have occurred if he took this role—he would probably have declined Sixth Sense (another ghost) years later if he had just done Ghost, right?!?
Also interested to hear more of your theory on real life couples in movies. Off the top of my head, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? is a PoYB favorite and probably created more friction between the fictional characters because of it. But who's to say!
Here's some random of things I'll send your way for response, since I am two Iron Hill Brewery beers deep and unprepared for cinema discussion:
I read that Swayze took this role because he was afraid of being pigeonholed as a macho action movie star, and yet I really only think of Dirty Dancing, and now this, when I think of him. So, goal achieved I guess?
Favorite pottery spoof? Mine is the episode of Community that I will link to before publishing this. [Editor's note: Part 1 with the great Tony Hale, Part 2 with the "hilarious ironic guy-on-guy Ghosting"]
Do you feel like the movie did a good job with the supernatural rules? Like for example, okay now the ghost can move objects: did that make sense? Did it NEED to make sense?
I'll think of more by the time I write the next email, that's good for now.
Keelan: This is the best thing that has ever come out of Reddit! Will this be my Halloween costume? Perhaps! Only time will tell. I feel like every cartoon has parodied the pottery scene, but so did Snoop Dog and Martha Stewart at one point, which just made me giggle.
So I read Patrick Swayze’s book, and prior to Ghost he was most recently in Road House, an action thriller, but then right before that he was in Dirty Dancing so it seems like he was working on breaking down the macho action man for a bit. He grew up in dance so maybe he initially felt the need to be a macho man in movies like Red Dawn and The Outsiders but then recognized that being a leading man of love was more his speed. That might be reaching but hey, who knows? He continued his career with more of the back and forth between romance and action.
I haven’t seen Dances with Wolves so my knowledge of Kevin Costner's performance is low but he has been a classic favorite of my mom's so I'm assuming he did a wonderful job. I don't know if it deserved a Best Picture nomination. Could it have something to do with the special effects? I don't know where we were in special effects development but was it good? The whole ghost-like images, going through the subway doors or walls feels like the very early special effects in that genre. I don't think sci-fi rules apply unless it's a trilogy or series of movies. Personally, I'm more about consistency over what makes sense.
Joe: I think the special effects discussion is pretty important here. Yes, you're right, they seem primitive in 2022, especially during those scenes when the villains get sucked into hell. It brings me back to what I guess is my ultimate conclusion on Ghost—this was kind of funny! The fact that I am even saying something like "the villains get sucked into hell by shadow demons" about a Swayze/Moore romance film is so funny to me. I love it. But it's not even something I can hold against Ghost. As you said, this was a late-'80s/early-'90s film. Even if the effects or whatever don't "hold up," it's innocent enough that you can't really take offense. It made the movie campy and fun.
I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point, so let's finish it up here. Final thoughts about Ghost? Even if some of the details don't hold up, will the overall expression of art stand the test of time? Will people still be watching Ghost thirty years from now, or will the hell demons of film drag it into obscurity?
Keelan: I don't necessarily think Ghost will stand the test of time as a classic that warrants an annual watch, but I do think it'll continue to build a niche following which may give it a comeback from time to time. I would recommend this to anyone over the age of five 😂😂
GRADE: 3.5 pukes out of 5
NEXT TIME: PoYB goes all-female reboot with Ghostbusters: Afterlife.
Kelly Clarkson's When Christmas Comes Around... album was a true journey. It was a festive and American Idol-style walk through Kelly's divorce. Kelly recently split from Reba McEntire's son, and we felt it especially in "Christmas Isn't Canceled (Just You)." I laughed out loud. Can I confirm this will be added to Santa's jamz list while he's delivering gifts on 12/24? No, I can't confirm that, but let me tell ya, he should. Somehow Kelly takes a hella sad topic and makes it light and poppy, and I appreciate that this time of year, when most Christmas music, while beautiful, is so damn depressing (I'm looking at you, "Christmas Shoes").
Tell Me You Love Me is Demi's second most recent album and the last one prior to their overdose. I chose this album because 1. I'm a whore for a church choir, 2. I like most of the songs, and 3. I truly love Demi’s voice. Their strong voice brings me back to Christina Aguilera days. I initially wanted to do a soundtrack (specifically Sister Act II or The Greatest Showman) but since soundtracks aren't allowed (dumb rule), I went with this.
This album came to me in the summer of 2019. I was in deep in a solid workout routine, and some of the songs on this album rocked my workout playlist (and still do). While their lyrics are not particularly deep, often repeated, and transparent, they ignite a force or fight within me to get stuff done, whether it's cleaning the tub or cleaning a heavier weight at the gym. "Sexy Dirty Love," "Sorry Not Sorry," and "Daddy Issues" are all fun and dance-y songs. "Tell Me You Love Me," "You Don’t Do It for Me Anymore," and "Games" give me American Idol strong vocals that I like to belt out when driving in the car.
Looking back on the album and their journey since then, I feel like there is definitely a sense of the struggle within them through the songs—working hard to be their truest self, addressing their issues head on and publicly, all while still dealing with their demons daily. While re-listening to TMYLM in full has some sad moments now, individually the songs bring different feelings, and that's why I like it.
I swore to you all the way back on April 25th that I was going to get more people involved in Record Club, and over the past twelve weeks, I feel safe in saying that this goal was achieved. This is the twelfth non-Joe album pick in a row. In that time, we've had eleven different people pick an album, including three members who have never picked an album before (Pat, Melissa, and Keelan). And most importantly, in that time there have been 55 reviews submitted, which is well above our average rate. I'm feeling good about all this, and I hope you are too. I'm mostly hoping that, with all this activity in the club, some of you have discovered some new music that you've deemed worthy for future relistens. That's really what it's all about.
Alright, let's get into it once again. We have a new album for you to explore. You know what to do. (Or check out the archives or the playlist if you don't know what to do.) Enjoy!
WEEK 127 — July 4-10, 2021
What we're listening to this week (Keelan's pick):
ALBUM:Tell Me You Love Me
ARTIST: Demi Lovato
RELEASED: September 29, 2017
WHAT GENRE IS THIS: Pop
WHY KEELAN PICKED IT: "It's fun and recent and probably not the typical pick so I think I'll go with that. I like most of the songs on it, which is why I picked it. I feel like I don't love a lot of whole albums if that makes sense? Like some songs here and there, but never the whole thing. I was going to go with either this or an Otis Redding album I always listen to, but Demi is more me, LOL, so let's do that!"
READING SOME SHIT: This NYTimes piece from earlier this year is worth the read. It's mostly about the context surrounding Lovato's most recent album (the wonderfully titled Dancing with the Devil... the Art of Starting Over), but that context definitely stretches back past Tell Me You Love Me as well.
PREVIOUSLY ON RECORD CLUB: Songwriter Sean Douglas cowrote four songs on this album, and it looks like he cowrote two songs on Cuz I Love You as well. Warren "Oak" Felder did some of the music for songs on both of those albums as well. Songwriter Sarah Aarons has a credit here for "Lonely," and also has a songwriting credit for the Chicks' "For Her" (plus, she has past songwriting credits for Maren Morris, who is one-fourth of the Highwomen). Jonas Jeberg did music for this album and for Kelly Rowland at one point. DJ Mustard produced music for both this album and for T-Pain. Ilsey Juber did some music for this album, as well as—get this—both Plastic Hearts and OK Human. I mean, I'm just clicking randomly on the Wikipedia page at this point. I don't think I'm saying anything that you don't already know about the pop music industry.
This album was fun to listen to because it is 100% out of my typical music library. I feel like it was something totally different than anything I've really listened to before but had some vocals that reminded me of Lauryn Hill meets Nora Jones with those bluesy-sultry vibes. I also liked that the length of songs varied throughout the album. Some were almost four minutes long while another one was less than a minute. The presence of a variety of instruments added layers to each song which was cool too. I don't think this will be added to my everyday playlists but I can totally see this played as background easy listening in a spa/salon or elevator.
I really liked this album. While there was a definitely souly-country theme, I found myself being more reminded of different TV and movies throughout mid-20th century decades than other artists specifically. For example, "Shady Grove" immediately reminded me of The Wonder Years as something Kevin Arnold’s parents would slow dance to in the kitchen while Kevin looked on from afar, both hating and loving what was happening. "Lonely The Night" reminded me of something I could see Meryl Streep singing out her window in Greece to the one that got away in Mama Mia. I enjoyed the throwback theme, and will definitely be adding some of Yola's jamz into the everyday music playlist.
*Loudly fakes ecstatic anticipation in the prospect of reading yet another Your Favorite Movie interview* "I'll have what she's having."
I've been chilling with Keelan F**** for like two decades now, ever since those Presentation B.V.M. days. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say Keelan is one of my favorite people. She's always optimistic, she has a bubbly personality, she laughs a lot, she's a loyal friend... in other words, Keelan was good company when she was gracious enough to talk with me and Pam about her favorite movie.
And just based on what I know about Keelan, it makes complete and total sense that her favorite movie is a romantic comedy. When Harry Met Sally set the standard for the genre, it seems like, and it was really fun digging into what makes this movie tick.
I've transcribed our lighthearted conversation below with Keelan's permission, lightly edited to account for all the fake orgasms. (Also, the official title of this movie is When Harry Met Sally..., with the ellipses at the end. Even though I'm usually a stickler for proper punctuation, I just find that annoying for some reason. So just put a mental [sic] in there every time we say the title of the movie, if you want.) Enjoy!
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Joe: Okay, so we're here to make Keelan cry.
Keelan: Great.
Joe: [pause] Do you think men and women can be friends?
Keelan: Wow, that's how we're going to start?
Joe: That's how we're going to start.
Keelan: I have a lot of thoughts and feelings, though, in general. I do. I think they can be friends.
Joe: I mean, we're friends. Do you think Harry brought up any good points about how men and women cannot be good friends?
Keelan: I do, but I don't know if... Harry says they cannot be friends, but I think it's situational to the time in your life. Maybe in that moment, they cannot be friends. But I think the movie proves that there are times that you can be friends, but it depends on where you are in your life at that time.
Joe: I mean, there was a time when they were just friends, in the movie, and that ultimately led to them hooking up. Right?
Keelan: Yes.
Joe: Which was his original point. You can't be friends, you're going to hook up.
Keelan: But it was at that point in their lives. When they were friends, everything was fine.
Joe: True.
Keelan: They were doing separate things. He was dating that baker. She was dating the other guy. They were going through their lives together as friends. And then, another time in their lives came, and something changed. A life event.
Joe: Had they tampered down their own horniness, I guess, they could've remained friends.
Keelan: But would that have been where they were in the lives at that point?
Joe: Fair.
Keelan: What do you think, Pam?
Pam: I don't know. [laughter]
Joe: I kind of connected with the middle timeline, when they were at the airport, and he was explaining the corollary to his original rule, like, "Well, if you're both in a relationship, maybe you can be friends." But then he's like, "Well, no, maybe your partner would start thinking you were hooking up with that friend, even if you weren't, and that would... not be good."
Keelan: Doesn't that show a weakness in that relationship, then?
Joe: I would be inclined to do it. The main reason [I won't be] is that that I have a kid and I want to spend as much time as I can with my wife and my kid, on days that neither of us are working. But I was trying to think, hypothetically, who would I invite to go to this with me? What friend could I possibly ask to go with me? It would be weird to ask a dude, like, "Hey, you wanna get naked together?"
Pam: [off-the-record snarky remark]
Joe: Well, okay, but any [girl] who I would be comfortable enough with to ask if they want to go on a naked bike ride with me, Pam would have a problem with it. Maybe not a "problem," but would question—"Why? What, do you want to get naked with this girl? Is that why you're going with her?" Anyone in my life that I think would hypothetically say yes, would also be the type of person that Pam would say, "Why do you want to see her tits?" Even though, I personally, that wouldn't be the reason why I would be going with her, hypothetically, to see her tits. But that's what you would say!
Keelan: But you open Pandora's Box with that.
Joe: But ultimately, I'm saying—circling back—I thought in that particular point that he was trying to make, he was ultimately correct.
Keelan: I agree. I do think that it has a lot to do with the security in your relationship. But I do agree with what you're saying, yeah. He makes a lot of good points.
Joe: And was kind of an asshole, when he was doing it? I think that was kind of the point, in the movie, that—
Keelan: Can I tell you a fun fact?
Joe: Please.
Keelan: I don't know if you know this.. The character of Harry is based off the director, Rob Reiner. The character of Sally is based off of the screenwriter, Nora Ephron. So the more bubbly but high-maintenance, and very strict and stringent, and has her own way of doing things, all based off of her. And all his super dark, asshole stuff is based off of him. The whole point of the movie was supposed to be that someone like that couldn't find love. And then Rob Reiner fell in love, while making the movie. He got married at the end of making the movie.
Pam: He didn't get married to the writer of the movie, did he?
[laughter]
Keelan: No, I think he married a choreographer. [Editor's note: We'll insert here that it was Michele Singer who is his wife, then and still, and she is a photographer. According to some post-interview research, she was the photographer who took the photo of trump that he used for the cover of The Art of the Deal, something which Reiner mockingly states that she has "a lot to atone for."]
Joe: Originally, Harry and Sally were not going to get together, and then Rob Reiner got married and he changed it?
Keelan: Yeah! Well, I think... I don't know if he got married [Editor's note: He did, in 1989, after production of When Harry Met Sally, but two months prior to the movie's release], but I think Rob Reiner finding love kind of opened his eyes to the possibility of finding that, versus the pessimistic side of him, before he found that.
Joe: Would it have been too pessimistic if Harry and Sally had remained friends and not been the "one" for each other?
Pam: Yeah, it would not have been the same movie it is now.
Keelan: It would've gone down a different path. There are other movies like that. Not to compare it to other movies.
Joe: Okay, well let me ask you this, then. I assume you are a big fan of romantic comedy genre?
Keelan: I love them! Of course.
Joe: So what is it about romantic comedies that you typically enjoy?
Keelan: I don't know. I grew up with them? I hate being scared, so those movies are not for me. Horror movies? No thank you. I'll throw up. Or punch someone. [laughter] Dramas, I can get into, but sometimes they are like solving a puzzle... and also sometimes really scary. But I think a romantic comedy gives you the best of all worlds. You're laughing, and there's happiness. Even if it's not something that's happening every day of your life, sometimes a movie can be a good escape. You enjoy those moments.
Joe: Is there a requirement for there to be a happy ending?
Keelan: No. It can be more interesting that way.
Pam: Some of them have really sad endings.
Joe: I mean, I'm clearly not an expert on the genre. What would be a movie I would know that ended sadly?
Keelan: Like, if they don't end up together?
Joe: Sure.
Keelan:My Best Friend's Wedding. They don't end up together in that one.
Joe: What's that, the Adam Sandler one?
Keelan: No, Julia Roberts, Dermot Mulroney...
Joe: What's the Sandler one?
Pam:The Wedding Singer.
Joe: I don't fucking know.
Keelan: Another classic, you gotta watch that one!
Pam: I love Wedding Singer. In the romantic comedy vein, and also the Adam Sandler-grand gesture vein. The huge grand gesture at the end, singing the song that he wrote on the airplane.
Keelan: Much like Harry's grand gesture at the end.
Joe: So let's break down that speech. What's the hook there, that got Sally to realize that he's the one?
Keelan: Well, I feel like you said it. He's this pessimistic guy, and kind of always negative. Like, he always reads the end of the book before reading the rest, in case he dies while reading it! That's so depressing, and so dark. But at the end, he makes this grand gesture. He doesn't know what's going to happen. He has to put all his hope and his faith into this big speech that he makes, and just pray that it gets him what he wants, and it's the most positive thing he does in the whole movie. You don't typically see that in him. So that might be the big shocking grand thing that needs to happen. Because after they sleep together, he was like, "See ya."
Joe: He was uncomfortable, as he warned he would be.
Keelan: So I think that's what does it.
Joe: So I went back into the archives, and apparently on August 25, 2010, I wrote a very short review of When Harry Met Sally. It was part of a group of reviews of movies that I had watched that summer, I guess. So I wrote—
Pam: Wait, so we were dating that summer?
Joe: Yes, and I guess I'm leading up to a point about that, as far as why I don't feel this way anymore. But I wrote: "'You suck, but I love you anyway' is both a summary of what Harry said to Sally in his famous monologue, and also what I think of this movie."
Keelan: Interesting.
Joe: So while I'm certainly not as pessimistic as I was—well, I don't even know if that's pessimistic—but I'm definitely not pessimistic now about the movie. I really enjoyed the movie. I guess the thing that stuck out to me at the time was that Harry is making this big speech, and saying all these negative things about Sally, but somehow twisting them into positives. Like, "I like you because of those negative things"? Not that... I'm not saying it was any less of a grand gesture. He definitely seemed to open up more than he did throughout the rest of the movie. So I guess that was the point?
Pam: Well, I think when you love someone, you love everything about them. Even their shortcomings. He was just highlighting those things to show her that he liked the things that may be perceived as negative.
Joe: The difference to me was, he was saying "I love you because of these things." Maybe if there's something that annoys me that Pam does, I say, "I love you and I want to be with you always, despite these little things that annoy me." Right?
Pam: ...I guess that's the difference between you and Harry.
[laughter]
Joe: I guess. Does that make me a shittier person than Harry?
Keelan: But this whole part has influenced so many other movies.
Joe: Was this the original "grand gesture" type deal?
Keelan: I can't say on the record that I know that for sure. But I feel like it's influence so many other movies, even movies that have come out recently. The Wedding Singer, he's doing his grand gesture, and saying things about her that other people wouldn't necessarily like about her. In Ten Things I Hate About You, "I hate all these things about you," she says in the end, but the thing she hates most is how much she loves him. Even Miley Cyrus has a song, "Seven Things I Hate About You," and the last thing she says is, "I hate that I love you."
Joe: Interesting!
Keelan: It's kind of traveled through pop culture history so well. And they just made that Always Be My Maybe on Netflix—great movie, didn't love it—but it was basically When Harry Met Sally, but today, with Ali Wong. It was another one with a grand gesture at the end, highlighting things that annoy you, but they all make up... things that annoy you about Pam, they all add up to this perfect Pam.
Joe: That's true! I would definitely say that about Pam.
Pam: No, you said you loved me "despite" those things.
Keelan: Can we have the court reporter bring that information bring that back up please? [laughter]
Joe: No, that I love you in total. Despite... no. [laughter] I guess, whether it created the trope or not, it is, as of now, still a romantic comedy trope. And I guess this movie had a few other ones, that are typical of a romantic comedy. There's a scene at the airport, though it wasn't a typical conversation that happens at romantic comedy airports.
Keelan: Well their big confrontation happened not long before they ended up hooking up. One thing they do in this movie that you don't see in other movies like this, is that they hold each other accountable. It seems like everybody else in their lives is doing their own thing, but Harry and Sally call each other out on each other's shit. Sally says to him, "You're just trying to sleep your way through New York to deal with your problems, you need to self-reflect a little bit here." And he's like, "You need to let go a little bit, and be a little looser, and more wild." Trying to address those areas that they may not love about each... but then they do love them about each other.
Joe: And I definitely felt like that was the most unique part about this movie, versus other romantic comedies, in that there wasn't an "easily solved misunderstand," like, "Oh, I thought you were somebody else" or, like, an "obstacle significant other," like, "She was dating a jackass at the time, and he pined for her and tried to steal her away." There wasn't anything like that! They were just dealing with their own neuroses.
Pam: Right, themselves, and their own barriers.
Joe: I thought that was pretty cool. And the actors played it very well.
Keelan: There's a huge age gap between them in the movie.
Joe: Between Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan?
Keelan: There's like a nine-year age difference. They're both supposed to 22 when the movie starts.
Pam: And how about when it ends?
Keelan: 32, I think? [Editor's note: Not sure if Keelan is referring to an age gap between the two main leads, or an age gap between when the characters met and when they consummated. She's correct, in general, on both counts. Crystal and Ryan are thirteen years apart in age, and the story takes place over the course of about ten or eleven years.]
Pam: Right, because they were supposed to be leaving college. They made them look younger.
Joe: They did their best, with the hairstyles.
Keelan: Oh my god, guys... Sally's hairstyle! We could talk for hours about it.
Joe: Yes, this is why we brought you here today.
Keelan: Obviously, this is all I'm good for, hairstyles. No, you can see her change her hairstyles... but when they end up together, her hair looks awful! She looks like a poodle.
[laughter]
Keelan: She's having a tough time! [Her ex-boyfriend] Joe's getting married, and she got this awful perm. And then she sleeps with Harry, and he's like, "Check ya later, girl." And she's like, "I have terrible hair, here I am."
Pam: But it came out in what, '89?
Keelan: It's their 30th anniversary this year, guys.
Pam: Perms were pretty cool back then...?
Joe: So would it have made it better if Harry, during his big speech, was like, "And I love you, despite your shitty haircut!"?
[laughter]
Pam: Only if that was something they had addressed before. It couldn't be the first time they brought it up.
Keelan: "What?! You're bringing my hair up now?!"
[laughter]
Pam: Yeah, she does have... some notable hairstyles.
Keelan: The weird bowl cut... It's... a lot.
Joe: I know you had mentioned a funny "behind the scenes" story. I know that on February 9, 2019, you shared on Facebook—
Keelan: What the hell?! [laughter]
Pam: He stalked your Facebook.
Keelan: Oh my god, this is wild. What did I do?!
Joe: I only said this specifically to get a reaction out of you. [laughter] But I did Facebook search "keelan f**** harry sally"... a lot of Harry Potter shit came up, because of the "harry" keyword.
Keelan: I like the movies, never read the books.
Joe: But you shared an article about stories behind the famous scenes. What was another one of your favorites? Like, a story that, say, Rob Reiner would tell.
Keelan: You're putting me on the spot, Joe.
Joe: Or just another one that the readers would find interesting.
Keelan: Another big part of the movie that I love is that, as they're going through the different times of their lives, there are breaks in both the seasons—their lives change with the seasons, and in New York, which is beautiful in the background—but they also interview couples throughout the movie. They are all real stories, just told by hired actors. They interviewed people before they made the movie. So every time you hear a story, like, "He rode nine extra floors..."—that was one of the stories, when they rode in the elevator, that's one of my favorite ones. There are so many good ones. Or even, the Asian couple, they were really sweet. I think the more you watch the movie critically, you can see how each of those stories fits into the time in Harry's and Sally's lives, that's following that story.
Joe: Do you ever think of a particular couple when you think of Harry and Sally, like a will-they-won't-they? In your own personal life?
Keelan: What do you mean?
Joe: I dunno, like, what couple in your personal life could be on that couch, telling you their story?
Keelan: I've never thought about that!
Joe: And this isn't a fishing comment. Me and Pam, we weren't anything like that, it wasn't "hate at first sight" or anything. I'm not expecting you to say me and Pam. [laughter] I'm genuinely curious.
Pam: There is a couple that I had in mind when you asked the question.
Keelan: Who?
Pam: Your parents!
Keelan:My parents?
Pam: Wasn't your dad a priest?
Keelan: He was. My dad was a priest, my mom was a teacher. He left the priesthood and asked her out. Then they were married six months later!
Pam: That's a story that would be told on that couch!
Joe: Absolutely. Rob Reiner is salivating right now, trying to get a hold of that story.
Keelan: No, I love the movie, but I know it's not a real movie. I love to celebrate the love, and think about it. But, in real life, would Harry and Sally really be together? I don't know. I don't know if they would find their way back to each other after eleven years. But I like the thought of, if it was supposed to happen for them, then it would happen for them. But I never thought about it in my own personal life. It's just a nice thing.
Pam: But there's always stories like that, when you find out. Like, these people have been married for 30 years, and I didn't know how they met, and you find out the story and are like, "Wow, that's pretty crazy." I feel like especially, nowadays, because everyone's on Tinder. That's how everyone meets, online dating. You don't get those stories anymore.
Keelan: Yeah, we don't live in a romantic comedy world anymore.
Pam: Unfortunately!
Keelan: It sucks! But, so many famous people today are influence by that, and talk about it all the time. Mindy Kaling's a big romantic comedy girl—I love her a lot—but she always talks about how we live in a world where it's just like, "I looked at you for a second, and then..." That's not a good story. That's not a meet cute. I love a good meet cute.
Joe: There's nothing like, "They are dating someone who's clearly an asshole, but they'll overcome that!" Think about it from that dude's perspective, even if he is an asshole. "My wife's cheating on me, and I'm the problem?!" Um... [pause]
Keelan: Can the record show that Joe is now consulting notes?
Pam: Yeah, this is a long pause.
Joe: I guess I wanted to go back and talk about... having watched it ten years ago, you [Pam] said earlier, "Weren't we dating when you watched this?" And I guess that I watched it differently this time because of how our relationship has changed since August 2010? Ya know?
Pam: That was the summer we started dating.
Joe: I guess I'm less pessimistic than I was then.
Pam: You were pessimistic then? I thought you would be like—
Joe: Well, pessimistic about the movie. Because we were still in that golden period. We hadn't fought, we didn't say anything negative to each other—as any typical relationship does during the first year or so.
Pam: [laughter] So we were dating for like a month.
Keelan: Everything that the other one does is perfect.
Joe: Exactly.
Pam: There is no speech at the end, because the person doesn't have any shortcomings!
Joe: Exactly. Hearing Harry saying, "Well, I love you because of all this shit," it was just like—
Keelan: "My Pam is perfect! I've never experienced this!"
Joe: Maybe I couldn't imagine, at that time, thinking negative things and having to overcome them. It was just like, "This is great!"
Pam: ...And now?!
[laughter]
Joe: Now that, ya know, we've gone through some stuff together, and grown together as a couple, a married couple... I now appreciate the realistic push-and-pull of a real relationship as portrayed in this movie.
Keelan: Older and wiser.
Joe: So take that, 2010 Puke on Your Birthday! Suck on that! [laughter] Okay, so, let's see... It was only nominated for one Oscar. For Best Original Screenplay. And it lost to...?
Keelan: Oh, I don't know.
Joe: Take a guess.
Pam: I don't even remember, and you told me this earlier today. [laughter] I have baby brain.
Joe:Dead Poet Society.
Pam: Ugh, I love that movie. That's one of my favorites.
Joe: It was interesting to see how many times Nora Ephron gave the credit away to the actors, and Rob Reiner, and whatnot. Like, for instance, "Oh, this wasn't originally in the script, but Billy Crystal suggested that he should be spitting grape seeds." And, that made that scene.
Keelan: It did!
Joe: Apparently Meg Ryan came up with the whole fake orgasm thing, on her own.
Keelan: And she was so nervous about doing it.
Joe: So let's talk about that scene. Definitely the most famous scene.
Keelan: Everyone knows that the woman who says, "I'll have what she's having," the most iconic line in the movie, is Rob Reiner's mom.
Joe: Yeah! I learned that on the IMDB trivia page. [laughter] It was very interesting to learn that, I dunno, the Film Critic's Association or whatever, listed the "Top 100 Movie Quotes of All Time." And that was in there. But it was the only one on there that was delivered in the movie by an untrained actor.
Keelan: Very cool.
Joe: So it's a claim to fame for... Mrs. Reiner.
Pam: It's definitely quotable.
Joe: And Billy Crystal came up with that line! It wasn't Nora Ephron. So... maybe she didn't deserve the Oscar? "What exactly do you do here?"
Keelan: I don't think that she... she's passed away at this point.
Joe: Is she? She's rolling in her grave right now.
Keelan: She wrote a lot of romantic comedies. She did You've Got Mail, and Sleepless in Seattle—great one—
Joe: So Meg Ryan was her muse, I guess?
Keelan: Yeah, Meg Ryan was the "Romantic comedy gal of the '90s."
Pam: I was reading an article about her today—I googled "what happened to meg ryan." [laughter]
Keelan: She cheated on Dennis Quaid, and everyone was like, "Bye girl!" Which, I would too!
Pam: With Russell Crowe?
Keelan: Yes! But, like, how could you cheat on Dennis Quaid? The dad from The Parent Trap?! That hottie! With Russell Crowe?!?
[laughter]
Joe: I was just reading an article about their son, Jack Quaid—
Keelan:Plus One? That movie? Did you see it?
Joe: Well, it was an interview he did on The Today Show, I guess promoting that movie. And they asked him about the orgasm scene. And he said, "I literally just watched it for the first time. I knew my mom was an iconic fake orgasmer, and I just didn't want to watch it."
Keelan: Makes sense.
Joe: But then, apparently on The Today Show, he said he "teared up" when he saw it, because his Mom was such a good actor? And then the Today Show audience cracked up laughing.
[laughter]
Pam: That's a strange response.
Keelan: I'd probably be giggling with them.
Joe: I don't know if I'd particularly want to watch my own mother perform those... noises... But Meg Ryan definitely did a great job!
Keelan: She did. She proved her point.
Joe: So, Rob Reiner had to rile her up a little bit to get her to do that. This was probably in the EW article that you posted on Facebook last February—
Keelan: I didn't get a chance to reread it.
[laughter]
Joe: About how she was a little timid at first, and he convinced her to go all out. It made me think of a story about Rob Reiner directing Stand by Me.
Keelan: Have you seen that?
Joe: Oh, one of my favorites. The iconic scene of the kids running across the bridge train tracks, away from the train, and how they're all, like, crying and really upset that they were going to get hit by a train. And apparently, the child actors weren't able to pull that off, so Rob Reiner took them aside and yelled at them, like, "You fucking kids! You can't do this?! Are you kidding me?!" And they all started crying and stuff, and he was like, "...and go." [laughter]
Pam: That's awesome.
Joe: So I'm curious... if he did something that like for Meg Ryan.
Keelan: ...
Pam: ...
Joe: [laughter]
Pam: Yeah, I saw your face when you said that.
Keelan: She got there.
Pam: She was faking it anyway. That was the point.
Joe: Okay... It's just something to chew on.
Keelan: [laughter] Okay. I'll wrack my brain about it.
Joe: Just think about what kind of director Rob Reiner is... Oh! Do you think that Harry and Sally would make good parents?
Keelan: I was actually just talking to my sister about this.
Joe: Your sister was one of the two people that liked your EW.com Facebook post.
Keelan: I'm thankful for that. [laughter] I think they would make good parents. Because, how they show it in the movie, while there are some outlandish moments, they do balance each other, and call each other on their bullshit. Which you don't always see in romantic comedies. So I'd like to think that, if they did have children, that they were able to bring that with them. You see them go through a lot together, they're there for each other, but then they hit snags... if they got to the point where they got married, they'd figure out how to get through the snags as a successful couple, and then as successful parents. What do you think?
Joe: In talking about them in terms of being parents, I saw more of me and Pam in them in that parent hypothetical, than in them as a couple. Like, Harry would bring a sardonic attitude toward it, and maybe seem like he doesn't care as much for the child's safety, but ultimately does. But then like, Sally picking up the slack, and actually doing the grunt work. And also both loving the child equally in their own ways. I dunno if you see that in us, Pam.
Pam: Yeah, I think that's kind of maybe a common theme with most parents? Like, the "mom role" versus the "dad role." Sally is like... that's her personality. She's the "doer," she's the organized one. Harry is more of the... jokester?
Keelan: And the silent one, maybe? You said Sally's the doer, but she also says, like, "I'm doing this! I'm getting this done! And I'm going to tell you I'm doing this! And if I get upset, I'm going to tell you that I'm upset! I'm not going to lock that in a box somewhere, because I don't have time to lock it away, I'm going to get over it and move on." Which, I feel like, is a common theme with moms. They do it, they wear their hearts on their sleeves, they get everything done, and if they get upset along the way, it happens. Maybe sometimes you don't necessarily see that with dads? But it depends on the dad. My own dad's an emotional guy. It depends! ...I love how this interview is so reflective on your marriage, and dating, and your life as parents—
Joe: And our orgasms?
Keelan: We're really hitting all the important topics on this.
Joe: What—and we're getting to the point where you have to explain why this is personally your favorite movie—but first, I want to take a step back, and ask—why was this successful as a movie? What made this a successful movie? Because it was, we can all agree to that.
Keelan: It was.
Joe: But from a non-personal standpoint.
Keelan: I think that it really blended the romance and comedy genres together, and brought it to how we know it today. It brought a sense of realism, that there are going to be issues, and not everyone is perfect, and no one has a completely wonderful "I saw you from across the room and we were meant to be" type thing. You see that a lot in romantic comedies, and that's just not the way the world works. I think that's really shown in this movie. You revisit it, or you're friends, or you're not friends, and things aren't good, but then you can get to a different place. I think that's why it was successful, because people can relate to it.
Joe: I read a lot of retrospectives—I guess people had written a lot for the 30th anniversary of the film—and one of the arguments for why this was successful stated that the script was very narrow in its premise. It didn't try to deal with a whole bunch of issues, it just dealt with—Can men and women be friends? And what happens when they try? And it dealt with that one very specific issue, and just walked us through it.
Keelan: And I feel like that's something people deal with every day, too.
Joe: It's an interesting way of looking at it. I contrast that with other romantic comedies, that were also successful? I guess Love Actually would be the opposite of that. It was not a narrow scope at all. It dealt with a wide variety of different bullshit. But it's still a great movie.
Keelan: Such a great movie.
Pam: I feel like Love Actually took pieces of that movie from When Harry Met Sally. Like Liam Neeson and the little boy, he's trying to help the little boy get the girlfriend, he's like, "And now, we have to do the grand gesture! Because that's what you do in movies!" And that all came from When Harry Met Sally.
Joe: I guess that's a good point. That Love Actually was a little more self-aware of the genre that it was.
Pam: And it's something that you can just assume is going to happen at the end of those movies now. Right?
Joe: Probably!
Keelan: With a lot of the movies that have recently come out on Netflix, they're trying to bring the romantic comedy genre back. The whole genre kind of died off for a while. I'm not sure if that's because it wasn't seen as realistic? Or the movies that were trying to do it just weren't doing a good job? If you think about it, from the early 2000s till now—besides Love Actually—there haven't really been a ton that stand out, like oh-my-gosh-classics. But they're trying to bring them back now and do them a little differently, and use more influence from Nora Ephron, and all those movies. A lot of that's happening too with bringing back TV shows from the '90s, and '80s, and revisiting that whole time period. So because of that, the whole romantic comedy genre is coming back now.
Joe: I haven't seen any of those movies on Netflix yet, like, what was it, All the Boys I've Ever Loved?
Keelan:All the Boys I Loved Before. It had the grand gesture at the end.
Joe: Okay! I was going to say, do they feature the romantic comedy tropes that we were talking about?
Pam: The formula.
Keelan: They do, yeah.
Joe: Is there any inversion of these tropes? Or is it just, like, "we're presenting them to the millennial generation now."
Keelan: I feel like they're just bring them to the millennials. Slowly but surely.
Joe: It's not a bad thing. It is what it is.
Keelan: Yeah.
Joe: So I guess we will then switch focus and ask, why did you personally bring this movie to this interview today?
Keelan: Well, I thought it would be a great topic to discuss—it clearly has been. I was hoping you had never seen it, so—2010 Joe, kick bricks.
Joe: Yeah, fuck you!
Keelan: But I grew up watching it, and I feel like every time I watch it, I kind of look at it differently. The first time I watched it, I was five or six, I had no idea what was going on. I was like, "They're yelling at each other! Her hair is crazy! He loves her!"
Joe: "She sure is ticklish at this diner!"
Keelan: But then when you're a little bit older, "Oh, woah. They're never going to work, they can't be together. Men and women can't be friends." And I feel like there was a time that I thought that, and I was like, "Oh god, no. No way. I agree with Harry." And then I got a little bit older and I was like, "You know what? I think they can. I think maybe, if it's done in a certain way." And then when I most recently watch it, it was, "I think it has more to do with where they're at in their lives." While the movie has stayed the same, I have grown into it more, as I've gotten older. I like that it's a good movie to reflect with. I also... I love the end. You see him running, and he's putting it all out there, it's Christmastime... it just gets ya. Christmas can be depressing as hell! And the music is beautiful, but very sad. So something like this is just so nice to see. All things can be sad, but also exciting, and there are a lot of emotions. I dunno, I love that there's a happy ending for it. Even though he's pessimistic, and a miserable guy... and Sally's, like, crazy. She's completely nuts! I feel like we didn't talk about how nuts she is!
[laughter]
Keelan: And what her upbringing must have been like, that made her that way. And why she got that perm at the end?!
[laughter]
Keelan: But they both have neurotic issues, but they find each other in the end. I feel like a lot of people today are nuts. And we're aware of how nuts we are in today's world. If you can see something like that... there's always going to be a part of me—and yes, it's not realistic—but there's always going to be a part of me that's like... I love that. I love to see that.
Joe: You hope that your own life—meaning "you" in general—has that happy ending.
Keelan: Yeah! Or just like... they have a lot of fun, even when they're friends. And I like to do that too. I like seeing that kind of stuff happen.
Joe: Like talking in funny voices in museums.
Keelan: Or at Sharper Image, singing along to some Oklahoma.
Keelan: That's such a good one. [gasps] When his wife shows up!? Oh man, you guys...
Pam: I feel like when you said "It depends on the time in their lives." They could be friends, because I don't think he was over his ex.
Keelan: And she wasn't really over Joe. And you could make an argument about when she was really over Joe, when did that actually happen. Was she over Joe, and the whole thing about him getting engaged—to his secretary, or whatever she was, that random tramp that he ended up marrying—
Keelan: She was really... she thought that she was really over it. How many times in our lives have we been like, "I'm passed it, it's done, it's over"—
Pam: And then you run into them at a bar.
Keelan: You don't even need a bad perm to get upset then.
Pam: I think it's a nice genre to give into, too. Like, right now I'm read a romance novel, because I'm like... I just wanted something nice.
Keelan: There's so much negativity in the world.
Pam: Something that's lighthearted, and something that I can just enjoy, and not, like, pore over, trying to figure it out. Just at face value, in the end, it's lighthearted.
Keelan: I think that's another part about it. We could sit here and break down why Sally is the way she is, and why Harry is the way he is, and why none of their relationships worked until that point, and will their relationships work together... or you could sit down, and be like, "The world around me is shitty today, so I'll watch this movie, and take it"—like what you said—"take it at face value, and just be happy that there's happiness, just for a little bit." Ya know?
Joe: That definitely seems to be a theme in these interviews. These movies just give you a little hope.
Pam: They restore a little bit of faith in humanity.
Joe: Yeah. Because it's tough, man!
Pam: But I feel like every generation can say that. There's always shitty stuff happening for every generation. Ya know? And people rely on these stories to keep them optimistic.
Keelan: That's why you're not interviewing people about the worst movie they've ever seen. [laughter] That would be rough... one of the worst movies I've ever seen is My Sister's Keeper. I will go on record and say that. It's the opposite of the book. And at the end you're just like, why? Why? Why did I do this to myself? I don't feel that way when I watch When Harry Met Sally.
Pam: It's just a feel-good movie. Sometimes you just want a feel-good movie. Whenever Joe goes out—he doesn't go out that much anymore—
Joe: Yeah, can we state that for the record now?
Keelan: "Joe goes out every night."
Joe: I'm not an absentee father, c'mon.
Pam: I think when you went to the Phillies game with Jim is when I watched Always Be My Maybe. [laughter] I was like, "Ooh, Joe's out tonight, I can watch a romantic comedy on Netflix!"
Joe: So if you wanted someone like me who wasn't sold on the whole romantic comedy genre itself, how would you sell When Harry Met Sally?
Keelan: Well, I think the movie speaks for itself. I don't think I need to sell it to anyone.
Joe: But if I'm asking you to do it now.
Keelan: But if you're asking me to do it now fine Joe! No, I would try to sell them on the fact that it is somewhat more realistic than another romantic comedy would be. And if you don't want to sit and fight about whether men and women can be friends, then maybe this isn't the movie for you? But it would definitely get you thinking. I think that's a good part of it too.
